From Thomas Fleckner (as PATAS PRO)
How did you become a non religious (Atheist) Humanist? Where you born into a non religious family, or did you free yourself from religion?
I have not been born into a religious family since I grew up in the GDR, one of the few countries were an only superficial Christianization in former times, a socialist government until 1990 and relatively high social and educational high standards have led to an evaporation of the religious faith. Less than one third of the population adheres to a religious confession in eastern Germany, making it to one of the least religious regions of the world. I didn’t notice the true role of religion at all even in our society until I started studying law and became an employee of a christian-democratic member of the German Parliament. Then my perspectives started to change…
In the first interview you did with me, I mentioned that Atheism Humanism still looks very western. What can peoples who are non religious Humanist do, to make it look and become global?
I think there are two ways: First, “we in the western world” have to raise the consciousness for the existence and activities of Humanists and other nonreligious people in the other regions of the world. This means that we must realize for ourselves first that there is (or better: should be) an international connection in our minds. On the other hand, Humanists in Asia can’t just wait for western organizations since these are often struggling with their own problems – atheists (in mostly secular) societies don’t tend to collaborate on the basis of their non-believe, people in secular societies often don’t realize the need for a dedicated nonreligious organization because they are far less confronted with lively religion as it’s the case in other areas of the world. To make atheist Humanism look global we have to start thinking and communicating globally. That’s one thing I am working on.
In Germany, State and Church are officially separated, yet the political party CDU has the C for Christian inside their name, and the state supports churches and even pays huge salaries to German Bishops (8000,- Euro) and cardinals even more (12.000,- Euro) per month. This is based on very old contracts, and this is money from a large group of tax payers who are not even a member of the church. What is your stance on this, and what do you think can and must be done to change this?
Well, that’s a bit more complicated. We’ve got no strict separation between state and religious organizations in Germany. Our constitution, the Grundgesetz, says that there shall be no state church as in the United Kingdom for example. But in detail our law requires that our state should be neutral in his relationship towards churches and other religious organizations – which means that he is allowed to maintain such relationships.
In case of state funded salaries for bishops and cardinals, it is true that they’ve got their origins in legal regulations which are between 80 and more than 200 years old, resulting from the German mediatization and contracts between the Vatican and the so called Third Reich of the Nazis. Other public financed funds which churches and religious communities receive, for example the jewish community, are based on newer treaties resulting from the principle of equal treatment with the established churches.
I think – and that’s what Humanists in Germany are calling for – that some of these old contracts and regulations should be canceled and some should be changed. But keep it real: For political changes and the modification of laws you need majorities in parliaments – and the churches in Germany are still strong (in politics and in the media) meanwhile the nonreligious people, as I said before, don’t tend naturally to collaborate on the basis of their atheism and most of people – especially in eastern Germany – are largely unaware of the problems or often unable to understand the significance and implications of this quite complex system regarding the public funding of religious organizations we’ve got here. Especially the cultural und social seculariziation we’ve got in eastern Germany left us a lot of nonreligious people who don’t have any problem at all with the softened evangelic church – so why should they have any concern about it, why support us, why support changes?
On the question what can be done about it is the answer – from my perspective – that we should keep on working and calling for reforms, but we can’t expect them to happen tomorrow. We’ve got a slow but clear decline in memberships of the churches and especially the younger generation is far more secular than any other generation before. Statistics are saying that in about 20 years less than half of the German population will adhere to one of the established churches. That’s the time when changes will have to happen – but one should keep a realistic eye here, too: Even in these states of Germany where only about one fifth of the population adheres to a religious confession, politicians which are church members are still a majority in parliaments and churches are still influential institutions. So either you’ve got a network and cooperation or not – and the church members have it.
What we can and must do until changes have to happen, is to use the existing system to build up our own organization and to claim some of the funding which churches here receive for their contribution to the civil society and the cultural system, too. And I think we in the western world have some sort of duty to build up a community which can support humanists and nonreligious people in other countries where they are really a minority – as for example on the Philippines or in Egypt.
What we must do also is to work on positive alternatives for the services of religious-cultural traditions, for example the confirmation, wedding or burial ceremonies and rituals. That’s why many of the less religious people cling to their churches and if we are able to replace some of the religious things which are addressing just humane and cultural needs, we can make the decline of the influence of religious institutions on our society “sustainable” – still keeping in mind that there will be always religion and religious communities.
Questions from Jovelean D. Borcas (CEO of PATAS and lead core officer for Cebu)
How do they deal with the divide among atheists that we should just "respect" religion and leave religious people alone? As many atheists can't seem to agree about forming groups or not. In a country where non-believers don't even make up 1% is having an atheist group a good step?
We’re struggling with this, too. It may be good to create a place for everyone: For those who are angry about religion and want to fight it and those who are considering religion as a silly thing but who are not convinced that it is always wise to seek the open conflict.
And that’s what you’re finding in the US or in other western countries. Humanist and atheists groups: The American Atheists and the American Humanist Association. Here in Germany the Humanistischer Verband Deutschlands and local chapters of the Giordano-Bruno-Stiftung, the german equivalent to the RDFRS. In the UK you’ve got the National Secular Society and the British Humanist Association. I think that it is important that the representatives of each organization know what the whole thing is about and no resources are wasted on unnecessary conflicts between the secular groups. For the beginning this needs a good communication.
In a country where nonbelievers don’t make up 1% it may be a good step to create an atheist group if people can understand what atheism is and why it is a thing of concern for them. And however you name it: It’s always a good thing when people come together to work for a secular and more humane society.
Would uniting atheists and forming groups be detrimental to the whole stance of atheism as many also comment that now it’s starting to act more like a church with different groups having their rules, movements, and even attendance being tracked?
Well, acting like a church may result from the fact that the behavior of churches and other religious organizations reflect lots of aspects of the human being. Developing rules and movements is a very natural human thing – you wouldn’t have neither nations nor suffrage or democracy without it. I think as long as there are no dogmas on the basis of arguments receiving strength from supernatural ideas or Atheists worshiping theistic and invisible personalities everything is still alright.
Atheism means the rejection of Theism, not the rejection of everything which the religious – among other – organizations do. Many business companies are tracking attendance and have a code of conduct for their employees and some sports clubs do it, too.
Finally, opposing religion is as costly as adhering to one, I would say from my experience, and as secular people we’re competing with legions of priests who have dedicated their lives on that religion-thing.
And lastly, what is their comment about the whole criticism that the atheism movement right now is not representing women?
That’s right – but we just can support women within the atheist movement, not forcing them into it. I don’t want to speculate about the reasons for the missing existence of women. There are already some scientific studies on the topic, as far as I remember.
Questions from Regie Pasion (Vice President of BATAS)
How is the stand of the German government towards LGBT people?
Better than in many other countries of the world, but we have still a democratic elected government which is led by the conservative Christian-Democratic Union (CDU). Our foreign minister is gay, the mayor of our capital is gay – but until the full equality in the laws, there’s still some way left to go.
How are LGBT peoples threatened by society in Germany?
Depends on the regions you’re living in but it doesn’t happen very often nowadays. There are some minor groups of retarded and intellectual depraved nationalists in some regions and in some cities or villages are existing segregated religious groups which may be a real problem for LGBT, but open threats or violence against LGTB is not commonplace in Germany today – foremost the evangelic church is trying to embracing LGBT, resulting from the pressure of the LGBT-movement itself and the readiness of secular groups to use every example of homophobia as a result of their grotesque religious myths…
Questions from Roderick Tubil (President of BATAS)
As an European, do you have an obligation to influence the moralities of Filipinos and or other nations?
An obligation to influence the moralities of other nations – no. That’s what the catholic church is doing. But I think there is an obligation to support humanist and other nonreligious people if they are asking for support.
What is the future of Islam in Europe?
Forecasts are difficult – especially regarding the future. Personally, I think the future of Islam in Europe is the development of a more liberal, more democratic, let me say: more protestant, practice of Islam as a prototype interested people in other Muslim cultures and communities. Indonesia shows that other forms of Islam can exist. Apart from that I am convinced that the mighty Roman-Catholic Church and the cooperation between secular instances of our civil society will protect our lands from being overtaken by crazy Muslim fundamentalists. In so far, I am not worried.
Questions from Marissa Torres Langseth (Founding Chairwoman of PATAS, residing in the US)
How do you as a German view the Filipino Atheists and the arise of the movement?
I am very happy about it and I hope it may help our fellows to develop a more international perspective, drawing a bit of their attention away from the giant Catholicism on their doorstep towards their friends far away.
How can German non religious make a difference in the religious Filipino Landscape?
Just ask Thomas Fleckner. Besides this, the German organizations are paying their contribute to the IHEU and working on overcoming the historic breaks which we had due to the Nazis (Social Democrats – with strong connections to former Humanist Organizations – voted as only party against the Enabling Act of 1933 and were prosecuted, forbidden and expropriated in the following years) and the division of the country with its socialist regime in the least religious part of Germany we had afterwards.
It’s important to fully understand the situation, which we’ve got in Germany: The people who are conscious about their non-believe make a very small part in that third of the population which is officially without a confession. Thanks to the Nazis and the GDR lots of older people are very skeptical towards ideologies – as well religious and nonreligious, and atheist Humanism seems to be one. And the people with the money are living mostly in the south, mostly being church members. So this relatively secular society with these Millions of nonreligious peoples brings some advantages for individuals, but also some disadvantages.
Until the few Humanists in Germany may able to make a real difference for the religious Filipino landscape we’re taking the AHA or the Norwegian Human-Etisk Forbund as a role model for a sustainable development. But I think, we can always help to arouse attention and consciousness for Filipinos’ problems with the Catholic Church in the German speaking part of Europe.
How do Germans who are Atheists live in their country? (Ceremonies, partnerships, children, etc...)
It’s very difficult to give a precise answer. As I said, lots of people aren’t conscious atheists here – because religion and theism have some sort of difference appearance here than in some regions of the US or on the Philippines and that’s the case especially the eastern part. What I can say is that most of them have just normal “European lives”, having partnerships and marriages sometimes, too.
One fact which is being discussed here – mostly in the scientific and academic community of course – is the fact of low fertility rates in many European countries. It’s dramatic low here and it seems that is connected to secularization but to consumerism and the neo-liberal capitalism, too – Read the last catholic popes speech on 1st January this year…there’s a reason why Benedikt XVI. decided to talk about the things addressed in section 5 and 6. (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20121208_xlvi-world-day-peace_en.html) So of course, many Atheists here have children, too. But it seems on the average they’ve got far too less…and most of the secularized Christians, too. They prefer buying cars from their income, or making trips to the Philippines instead of thinking about families – except the more conservative people and the less educated…
Nevertheless, those who marry or who have children are often using nonreligious ceremonies to celebrate it. Well known especially in the eastern part is the so-called “Jugendfeier” (Humanist Confirmation) that has been derived from the “Jugendweihe” of the religious humanism which formed in the second part of the 19th century in middle Europe and was continued in the GDR. So people are used to it, they like it and we’ve got a way to get in contact with them. It’s a wonderful thing.
Questions from Thomas Fleckner (as PATAS Vice President and CEO of BATAS)
You were one of the fist European representatives of a Humanist (non religious) organization to approach PATAS, outside Europe, and in Asia. What could be done, in your opinion, to spark more exchange between the continents?
I would say in the next time it’s important to raise the consciousness for the existence of nonreligious communities on other continents and to strengthen and stabilize the dialogue between them. That’s some kind of work which must be done because it seems that even Humanists don’t tend to look always beyond their borders.
Members of PATAS often struggle with being labeled as Satanists, Communists, or demons. How is the situation in Germany? What issues to open Humanist and or Atheists HVD members come across in society?
That may happen mostly happen in strange conservative regions today, like very catholic villages in southern Germany perhaps. Before the wide spread abuse of children through clerics was uncovered even the German bishops used lots of defamation on nonreligious groups. But it has changed now since the public opinion has changed and some new media – think of the role of Facebook or Twitter – is helping to spread the word. In some way, the former situation has been reversed through the last years. In June 2011, a well known blogger called the roman-catholic church a “sect of child molesters” and a court in Berlin decided to reject the criminal complaints following – it said, the church made a significant contribution to cause such insults.
Though, we’ve got other strange court decisions like the one where a judge ruled that the children of nonreligious parents had to take part a religious education at school to protect their wellbeing: The father did ask for it, the mother didn’t want it. Because they were living a deeply catholic area the court said that it’s the best to follow the fathers will to save the children from exclusion by the school community.
A good example for discrimination that especially the nonreligious people are facing can be found in the labor market. Since Germany is still some kind of welfare state there are many, many charitable – often almost fully state funded – organizations. Many of them are run by the churches – the more secular our society became the more the churches entrenched themselves in this market. And they’ve got law privileges that allow them to employ only church members. Whether this is going to change soon, I don’t know. We’ve got elections in September and the CDU hasn’t been so strong in public polls since years…
The catholic church is in Europe, Italy. Most Filipinos are baptized catholic, yet in contrast to Germany, where one can resign from church, the Philippines does not offer such sign out of church formalities. This is a forced membership in a European organization. What could you advise, or even do as HVD, to support and help Filipino catholics, who want to leave the church, to get this done?
I can’t give any statement on what the HVD could do here. Most Humanists are against the registration of religious confessions through the authorities like we have it in Germany because this is a part of our call for a separation of state and church. It’s not only publicly registered here which confession you have, you even have to pay for the resigning act!
So, if the authorities on the Philippines don’t register the religious confession of its citizens and therefore baptized catholics are unable to perform an official act of resigning from church – that’s just how a secular state should be, or not? That the parents allow the church to register the newborns as members is another thing…
I would advise, just stop to invest into the church and start to invest into something different: Perhaps PATAS could establish a well-known register for Ex-Catholics over the time? If the church and the state don’t offer to resign publicly, PATAS could – together with a nice funny exit ritual or a solemnly debaptization ceremony? By the time, the word will spread, don’t you think?
However, it’s true that the Roman-catholic Church is based in Europe but it is, with regard to its membership counts, no longer really a European organization – many new priests in Germany are coming from Africa today. And looking on the real power relations: At this time I don’t see any real possibility on influencing the churches behavior on the Philippines.
On September 21, BATAS, the LGBT wing of PATAS will have a grand event. LGBT issues are very often linked with Atheism and Humanism. What is your opinion about why LGBT's and Atheist Humanist organizations work together closely and even why they belong together?
I think they should work together because they’ve got many things in common: LGBT and Atheists/Humanists are a minority, they’re facing discrimination, the root of their evil is often religion, many LGBT are nonreligious – at least here in Germany. That doesn’t mean that atheist and LGBT organizations should be the same, but their concerns are – as you said – very often linked. Unfortunately, the LGBT movement formed itself much earlier in Germany than the secular humanist one. We are working on establishing a better cooperation right now, and after I have finished my answers I will take part in a LGBT Community-Party in a park in my neighborhood. But here in the western countries, we shouldn’t miss the connection the skeptical movement, too.
At the moment we can observe a Russian president, who is strongly allied with the Christian orthodox church, cutting down LGBT rights, by prohibiting foreign child adoption by homosexual couples and not allowing homosexuality to be promoted or mentioned towards minors. Russia, as a linking country between Asia and Europe, how do you see this political movement, and where may this end?
Well, I consider the Russian society as a deeply destabilized society with tons of social problems. In such situations mostly the rights of minorities are coming under the wheels first – not only those of LGBT, those of other groups also. Feminists, Human rights activists, Atheists, critical Journalists…they suffer from the new oppression, too.
The special difference for LGBT is that it’s harder to hide ones’ own “attitude” and they’re facing violence more often. I hope that all these oppressed groups could recognize what they’ve got in common to start building safe harbors within such a declining society. But as you can see, even the allegedly strong LGBT rights movements in the west can’t do much about the developments.
I think it’s reasonable to say that the people in Russia should prepare for a new political epoch which will be not the brightest one. Even we here in Europe are smelling sometimes a new sunset coming.
Next year August, there is a Humanist convention in Oxford UK. PATAS will have some members attending there, specially the ones who live in the UK. Will peoples from the HVD be present?
Of course, I suppose. I will be there and I am already looking forward this great event!
Thank you for this interview (Conducted by Thomas Fleckner in his position as the PRO of PATAS)
Arik Platzek an editor of the German Humanist Magazine “Diesseits” and chief of wissenrockt.de. A native of East Berlin, who studied law and political science in Greifswald, a fellow of the Giordano Bruno Foundation and previously worked as a freelance journalist, including for the Ostsee-Zeitung, the Internet portal hpd.de and ZEIT. In addition, he advises small businesses with public relations and dealing with new media.
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